Curse

Bleidd · Jan 29, 2006, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Warning: This post is not grounded on any amount of research apart from my own personal experiences over the last two weeks. Your mileage may vary. Generally speaking I'm looking for opinions and/or thoughts on the issue.

As mentioned above, over the course of playing for the last two weeks, I have observed two things:
1. I enter a town, particulary any in the Crystal Desert and beyond, and notice I'm one of only two or three Elementalists present. On average there's an equal number of Mesmers. Everyone else is either a Warrior, a Ranger, a Monk, or a Necromancer. This does not take into account the town of Augury Rock, which seems to be the new Monkbot™ haven.
2. In these later areas of the game, and in Deldrimor War Camp in particular, I have noticed a complete lack of "GLF Elementalist/nuker/etc" and have yet to get a response when I "LFG Elementalist/nuker/etc."

My question here is also two-fold as a result:
1. Is it just happenstance and/or timing, or has there been a decline of Elementalists in the last few weeks?
2. Is the lack of requests for such a result of the previous question, or any combination of the following: Necromancers in particular, are just better suited to these later areas; one Elementalist is enough and the group already has one; public opinion of the Elementalist as a mindless Fire Storm AEer prevails among the majority of the playerbase. I called Necromancers out in particular as I see even more requests for them than I do for Monks in these later areas.

Secondly, what role does an Elementalist play in the current game? This question is strictly aiming for opinions from the reader. As I have stated, I have not seen any groups looking for Elementalists. Whereas I see very specific requests for other classes and builds; a Prot Monk, a Heal Monk, a MM Necromancer, a Stance Warrior, etc.

Lastly, my own opinion. I have experimented off and on with various elements in the class, to see what each could do, how each might be useful, etc. In my opinion:

Fire - Fire of course "suffered" the most from the AI buff. Searing Heat and Fire Storm are of questionable use, Lava Font even more questionable; Rodgort's Invocation and to a lesser degree I Bond are still useful in Fire spiking; Fireball is a decent spell for its cost provided it hits. Immolate is still one of the best spells. Meteor Shower is still very useful, especially when used with Echo/Arc Echo and Attunements. The PBAE Fire spells are very situational in my experience.

Earth - Alot of good Wards and Armours here, though as mentioned above I've yet to see a single request for a Ward Elementalist for a group. The damage spells here are primarily PBAE with the exception of Obsidian Flame, which apart from its Exhaustion is a wonderful spike spell. My only question is why Ward Against Harm is in the Water line.

Water - Maybe someone would be gracious enough as to enlighten me here. I've yet to find anything in this line apart from subpar damage, redundant snares, and a handful of situational spells.

Air - The spike line with utility. For the time being this seems to rank up there with Earth for me in terms of overall effectiveness across the board. I've not as much experience with this line as I have with the others but so far I like it. The single-target nature of most of its spells, coupled with the high damage, make it seem like it would be often requested. Again, though, I've yet to see that.

In closing, again, this is simply a collection of opinions and assumptions based on my own observations. Its entirely possible I'm suffering from a terrible case of "the wrong place at the wrong time." Comments and thoughts are welcome (the point behind this post); outright flames will be politely ignored. By all means feel free to correct me where I'm absolutely wrong about something. Thank you for your time.

Avarre · Jan 29, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Like with mesmers, most random PUGs are incapable of seeing the use of any skill that does not do massive aoe echoed damage. The elementalist archtype of echo meteor shower was hurt slightly by the update, and in terms of sheer firepower, the elementalist is eclipsed slightly by SS necros, ESPECIALLY with the gear/keg/book 'exploit' to concentrate the enemy groups into a close area.

Hockster · Jan 29, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Most people are realizing that many ele's are/were too stupid to change their builds. As a result they cause all kinds of horrid agro problems and usually get the group killed. The only thing many of them are good for anymore is stripping for gold.

Bleidd · Jan 29, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Like with mesmers, most random PUGs are incapable of seeing the use of any skill that does not do massive aoe echoed damage. The elementalist archtype of echo meteor shower was hurt slightly by the update, and in terms of sheer firepower, the elementalist is eclipsed slightly by SS necros, ESPECIALLY with the gear/keg/book 'exploit' to concentrate the enemy groups into a close area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

Most people are realizing that many ele's are/were too stupid to change their builds. As a result they cause all kinds of horrid agro problems and usually get the group killed. The only thing many of them are good for anymore is stripping for gold.

Both of your statements would then seem to indicate a vast majority still equates Elementalist to "fire bomber." The fact a Sup Fire Rune still sells for several times more than any others reinforces that. That lends merit to my assumption that people are largely unaware of what an Elementalist can do, even those that play one but have never stepped outside the Fire line. I find this to parallel the plight of the Mesmer in alot of ways.

Thank you both for your input.

Divinus Stella · Jan 29, 2006, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Still a high demand for nukers in end-game areas like Black Hole and FoW/UW, as a fire nuker can still out damage any SS necro.
I have noticed less about, but i think they've all made rangers, never seen so many rangers around before.

LifeInfusion · Jan 29, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

I've been air/heal or earth/heal since mid-august/september using conditions and wards. I have NEVER seen anyone ask for a warden.

The reason for all of this is because people have discovered how effective necromancers are. I remember when I had my necromancer in hell's precipice months ago, and NOBODY wanted a necromancer, mesmer, or ranger. Now you see minionmasters, curses magic, and blood magic all over the place.

Retribution X · Jan 29, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28

They are still usefull... they just thought an ele was only a nuker.

just blast the living hell outta them, and set them on fire...

Zakarr · Jan 29, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bleidd

Water - Maybe someone would be gracious enough as to enlighten me here. I've yet to find anything in this line apart from subpar damage, redundant snares, and a handful of situational spells.

I haven't played much with water magics but when looking at skill descriptions, water magic needs more control from the whole party to be effective. Its purpose is to mainly slow down enemies and enchant lighting magic in certain cases. Unfortunately only Lighting Touch produce more damage to the target when it suffers from water hex. I think ArenaNet should do something about that. Water magic also helps to keep target(s) at area on effect as long as possible. Using it properly needs good timing and usually PUGs don't listen or understand what to do. Maybe it is just easier to kill targets with high damage skills rather than playing with slow down and AoE skills.

Water magic also has two armor increasing skills but I don't know how well they would work. Durations are quite low and can't be casted on allies. Maybe good for E/W tanks if there isn't fire damage.

Ward Against Harm elite skill is water magic although only good for defensive role. PUGs just should realize to stay inside the ward.

Fire Storm is good enough at least in low level areas where melee combat has too much heat. You can scatter enemies and make them run by casting AoE. Just remember to stay at Area on Effect so they run back and get some damage before AoE wears out. Most warriors just chase all targets and then AoE is almost useless. Good to protect monk and spell casters too for awhile from melee attackers.

lord_shar · Jan 29, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Fire elems are quite useful in the new Tombs since many creatures in there have low fire resistance. Also, Meteor Showers can't be ended prematurely by Fingers of Chaos once successfully cast (unlike SS).

D.E.V.i.A.N.C.E · Jan 29, 2006, 08:17 PM // 20:17

I'v Seen a rare few good ele's in FoW that could tank dmg better than most Stance tank W/--'s

Ele's have a few "condition" spells; but dont last long enough to make much more of a diffrence; you more than likely have to epidemic the condition spells if your ele primary.

Ele's can "spike" but when do you need spiking in PvE? spiking is much more of a pvp tatic.

In respect to the elementalist class; I think It's much better to have it as a secondary for support magic.

Theres better debuffers out there like; Trapers; Nec Debuffs(man ppl dont get how useful I was when the monsters where doing 6dmg) hardly got into parties as that type Poison/Epidemic rangers... well i guess ranger and nec have better debuffs overall; warriors can get fazed out by "no flesh" then thier condition combo is ruined... I have yet to see 1 warrior use SKULL CRACK other than me... dazed is one of the best disabling conditions...

respect to mesmers they can disable alot of things but not much "support your party" spells...

sidenote fav condition spell; Rotting Flesh, for those pesky target changing stone summit; run around so much bound to hit every one of em...

Skuld · Jan 29, 2006, 08:17 PM // 20:17

I think the skills should have been switched in pre for ele, people are encouraged to use fire, and then they don't want to switch from something they know that works. I played water for a long time and water trident, deep freeze, maelstrom and ice spear are very effective against warriors.

Cjlr · Jan 29, 2006, 08:25 PM // 20:25

As a lifelong elementalist, I can see where you're coming from, but I've just spent the last few days in the high-end spots, and I have certainly didn't notice a lack of eles. Of course, there were only 10 people at all in Abbadon's Mouth when I was there, but still... I really only use fire because I'm too lazy to find that rare group looking for something else, but from what I remember of the attribute lines:

Fire magic is still plenty useful. Just cause monsters aren't idiots anymore doesn't mean aoes are useless. Meteor shower still keeps them in place (for the most part) because of its knockdown, and not only that but when monsters are running around like headless chickens they AREN'T attacking or healing. It took a little adjustment after the AI update, but Immolate, Meteor, Fireball, Rodgort's Invocation, and Meteor Shower put out plenty of damage for me, thank you very much.

Earth magic is downright nasty if you play it right. I've yet to see two geomancers within a week but there's a lot of potential in it. Obsidian flame is killer, if you can accept the exhaustion. Stoning + Stone daggers put out decent damage most of the time, Kinetic Armour rocks, Wards can make the difference between a wipe and a flawless win...

Air magic is a little like fire - except, it's only good against one target at a time. On the plus side, aeromancer armour looks the coolest. Good luck trying to find enough air eles for a spike group in PvE, though. Nonetheless, even one can turn the tide for you if you know what you're doing.

And that brings us to water magic... The retarded kid of the bunch. I haven't counted, but I think there's probably at least a dozen spells that do 10 damage and cause target foe to move 66% slower for 8 seconds. Armour of mist is decent if you're in a hurry, and so's Mist Form, but they're really not worth putting your points into water for.

This has been kind of a rambling post, and I've lost the original message I wanted to get across... Wait, I remember. Elementalists kick ass! Of course, people with their cookie cutter builds in most towns wouldn't know it. It's all echo nuking plus the occasional warder. All the classes have their underappreciated aspects, Eles are no different.

Bleidd · Jan 29, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cjlr

Of course, people with their cookie cutter builds in most towns wouldn't know it. It's all echo nuking plus the occasional warder. All the classes have their underappreciated aspects, Eles are no different.

I agree with you; my point was I haven't even seen any requests for that cookie cutter echo nuker as of late.

Thanks to all of the above that have responded. I'm a Geomancer (more often than not) myself if anyone was curious.

calamitykell · Jan 29, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bleidd

Fire - Fire of course "suffered" the most from the AI buff. Searing Heat and Fire Storm are of questionable use

As a mesmer, I find Firestorms very useful for when I'm being mobbed. I can run and stand in the Firestorm (if I'm not already in it) and be cleared of most mobs in a few seconds. I don't see how any reasonable team player can consider that as a skill of "questionable use." It annoys me to no end to see the Elementalists think that just because it might not deal damage for 10 seconds that it isn't useful anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bleidd

Water - Maybe someone would be gracious enough as to enlighten me here. I've yet to find anything in this line apart from subpar damage, redundant snares, and a handful of situational spells.

....snare + firestorm? Oh wait, that'd require you to make use of 3 attributes instead of 2. Nevermind.

I think you should start to consider your Elementalist as something other than "I deal uber damage." Don't wanna bring Firestorm to get mobs to scatter off your allies? Cool, when I monk I'll leave it up to you to use Wards and Aura of Restoration to keep yourself alive. GG.

Excer · Jan 29, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

i havent payed much attention to this situation in pve recently since i only solo or group with friends/guildies nowdays, but i still see "GLF nuker" quite often in tombs/uw/etc. in the actual tombs, or "hero's ascent" i do witness a real lack of eles. most teams are either ranger spike, iway, or anti iway, and while both use ele skills, they dont include ele primarys. however in gvg, i see elementalists quite frequently. many guilds are starting to use a water ele, and to great effectivness if i might add. people take the ability to move as granted and snares are really underrated

Hockster · Jan 29, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Still a high demand for nukers in end-game areas like Black Hole and FoW/UW, as a fire nuker can still out damage any SS necro.

Bwahahahahahaha!!!!! That's the funniest thing I've read in a while. Try playing a curses necro for a while.

FWIW, I have an ele with 2 million XP, and a full curse necro with almost 1 million XP. The ele can't come close to a good necro for damage output anymore. Ice Golems nuking not included.

Big_Iron · Jan 29, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

As someone who plays both a Fire Nuker and an SS Necro, I can acknowledge that there's less demand for Eles now in the higher level missions and even less in SF. Luckily, I've already finished the game (including the Titan Quests) with both Chars so it doesn't affect me in the slightest. My Ele spends a lot of time in Tombs now, where there is still a big demand for experienced nukers and they are still very effective. I'll take her to UW/FoW on occasion too because there does still seem to be a demand for experienced nukers there. I divide my time between Tombs and ToA with my SS Necro, popping into SF sometimes, but the number of noobs there is more than I care for most of the time, so it's only rarely.

I love my Necro. She's very powerful and she was my first real character in Post. She'll always have a special place in my heart. But I have more fun playing my Ele. With my Necro, I can cast spells and sit back (not really, but you get my drift). With my Ele, I have to be smart and play more strategically. And when I nuke a group and see all those negative yellow number rising above their heads, I get a lot of satisfaction. **

Edit --> ** This is personal preference, of course. Your milage may vary. Please do not try this at home, etc.

BBoy_Manchild · Jan 29, 2006, 10:04 PM // 22:04

dont put mesmers in the same group as eles, mesmers rock and eles dont anymore
though eles have a monopoly in the new UW, most groups have 2-3 echo nukers in them

Pevil Lihatuh · Jan 29, 2006, 10:15 PM // 22:15

heh well you see, people in games are as stupid as in real life

They go through phases. Right now, the phase is "omg aoe is useless".

Many people play as only one or two classes. They don't have a clue what other classes are able to do, and as such take other peoples word on things. So the mesmer can do no damage (lets forget all about Backfire doing 150+ dmg everytime the enemy casts), Eles are only good as AoE nukers, Necros are worthless unless they SS/battery, Rangers are only worth it in a trapper group, Warriors are all brainless morons who die in 2 seconds and Monks are only there to prot bond you.

I'm still seeing the usual "group looking for nuker/bonder/tanks" messages. I'm still not seeing people ask for rangers or mesmers. But then I usually have local chat turned off (since I now refuse to PUG).

I'm trying to get an Ele going myself (lvl 10, frostgate) and so far i'm having fun with her and the henchies. I was thinking of a Water/Earth ele, but now you guys say Water is so rubbish... hehe. I'll try it all out though. I know its pretty nice against Plague Devourers (seems they don't like cold, it does double dmg to them so I can hit them for over 100 each spell hehe).

Oh and as already said, AoE still rules. They never seem to run until after 3 hits, so thats (3 x damage) x *amount of enemies* which is still nice, AND stops them attacking you AND stops monks healing themselves/others. A well timed AoE can really help make the fight.

Anyhoo guess my overall opinion is that 90% of gw players are too ignorant of the game, or too stuck in their ways to ever know what to truly look for in a team. Phases are gonna come and go, in fact its just like FOTM builds in PvP. Just more like FOTY for PvE

Mathias Deathwater · Jan 29, 2006, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Ok, as a life-long water ele, I think I need to set some people straight about water magic. Do you ever wonder why water magic doesn't do a whole lot of damage? Maybe, and here's the kicker, It's not supposed to do lots of damage!!! Just clicking on spells and making things go boom is not what water is about. It's about hexes. Lots and lots of hexes. AoE hexes. Hexes that can cover other hexes and can fuel some other conditional skills. You know that necro elite Feast of Corruption? Now, imagine a team using that after a water ele cast deep freeze on a group. Another useful thing is, Ward against harm in the RoF missions. You know how everyone hates fighting the inferno imps? Set up a ward and anyone smart enough to stand inside it will not die nearly as fast as people outside it. I personally think people don't like water because it takes more skill than "What spells in this line can I use to do the most damage so I can put all my points into it and Energy Storage?" It's meant to work with your secondary and even other people's secondaries. Oh, and never tell me it's not fun to kite a warrior after slowing him down and spamming water trident.

And, with that, I close.